Category Archives: Progress

…it’s still morning somewhere, right?!?

Mmm …. pie!

Sunday afternoon on the WIBC-Facebook page I said that I had a progress announcement about my baking book — and that I was going to post this morning …. and it’s now PIE’o’clock (3:14PM) …. and I’m realizing I didn’t get to it*, ACK! I’ve been busy getting my BagpiperDon website working right so it’s as equally as awesome as my recent updates to this site. ANYWAY…

I had a conference call with my editor, Linda, on Sunday. She is A*W*E*S*O*M*E — she’s bold, she’s brilliant, she’s hilarious, Linda Makes Work FUN! (And yes, Linda, you may quote me on that for your portfolio.) We nailed down a number of things both having to do with my book and my plans to re-release it after paper publication as an e-book. I have a check-list of the things I need to satisfy (as provided by my friend & e-publishing coach, Tom) — toward the end of my call with Linda I ran down the list and updated it.
(PSST! – Linda has a bran-new website COMING SOON – see here at CheckChick.com!)

Here’s the HURRAH Announcement

There are 18 total To-Do items on the list, I have 11 DONE, I have only 7 more to go!

Now — real quick — what does that mean?  Simply speaking, there are big tasks and small tasks in writing and publishing a book.  Usually writing the book is a huge task — DUH, obviously!  Other tasks may take a few hours, days, or weeks, and those are considerably short …. even if that means taking two days to craft a few paragraphs for the wings or back of a book.  There’s still the final edit work to do on my book, and the other tasks are really pretty small … but they add up & take time.  For DIY boot-strappers like myself that just means nose-to-the-gumption-grindstone!

“So when is your release date, Don?”

I am hoping to publish by Black Friday, however with everything going on I think it will be closer to Xmas. As many of you know I experienced a hard-drive crash early this year and have had to re-start my project working from old back-ups, e-documents I thought I had lost completely, and most but not all of the photos I had planned to include. Having received Linda’s added involvement has been nothing short of a GIFT! The book has been coming back together, and while it’s not done Right Now it is a better book than I had written last year. Do you think that this adds to my excitement???

OH YEAH!

So, work to go!
Back At It — Don

Tom and his many abilities at TrimbathCreative.wordpress.com
Linda, my editor, at CheckChick.com and her Check Chick Facebook page

* So here’s a little insight about being a small business owner….
It’s said that in ancient times if the gods wanted to get revenge on some humans they’d make them go crazy — and to accomplish this they make them fall in love. In modern times, I think gods make people go crazy by making them think “Hey, I can start & run a small business!”  Is a small business Love?  Well, if you’re passionate about what you’re doing…. then, Yes!

Fall 2015 – The Months To Come

I would like to title today’s post quoting a line and character from a film.  Without further adieu, I give you…

SHIFT IT!” ~ Magenta

The farmers’ market season was great — that with the couple of other events I got WIBC into over the summer.  I enjoyed reaching new customers, getting to talk about my product & company plans, getting to meet both The Public and my fellow vendors — all of it.

Before the season started, I was told that my business would be influenced by the tourism light-switch — that one day I would be doing my thing and then the next I would be unbelievably busy, a few months would pass, and then suddenly I’d be at a near stand-still.  Well, that stand-still has come and THANK JUPITER FOR IT! 😉

Long short, I needed the change of pace.  Now I’m diving in on a number of things — working on….

  • Getting my business into upcoming events — Xmas bazaars, other conventions, and events into 2016
  • Myriad things I haven’t had time to work on for my company over these many months including developing new & additional products
  • Personal projects, work I haven’t had time to do these past months, and generally working on my to-do list

Among the many things for my company I haven’t had time to work on is new-product development.  I have so many ideas they are too many to tell ….. and until I’ve released them I’d rather keep them a bit of a secret.

Yeah, okay, there’s the quick update.  I’m in the kitchen & I have a little bit of stuff to turn out ….. and by ‘little bit’ I do mean only a little bit.

Tacos, Don

The Work Will Show You

Sometime in the past 6 months – maybe a year – I read a proverb that left an impression on me. “The work will show you how to do it.” I want to cite it as Swedish, but for all I know it could have been Jewish, Confucius, or Vulcan. Since day one – 01December2014 – this has rung true with finding more efficient ways to work in my bakery, offering my products, et cetera. Every time I come away saying “Hmm, well, that was interesting – good, I’ve learned something new!”

Over the past few weeks my work has started showing me about itself in Dollars & Sense. Before the company started I figured I would sell both wholesale and retail – selling through stores would provide a steady income for my business while I would offer my products for retail direct as I found interested customers. During these past four months the ‘retail direct’ thing hasn’t happened much. When it has it’s been nice to get that extra income for my company, and frankly my business needs more of it.

To me a lot of people have a bizarre sense of ‘success’. Like with my music – after playing a 4 day long music festival I would get asked how successful the weekend had been. I’d say I played my music, I met a lot of people, I made them laugh, folks signed up on my mailing list, and I made new prospective contacts – in all, I had a good time. Then I would often receive a follow-up or clarification question about how much money I made, how many CDs I sold, and by that if the weekend had been ‘good’ or ‘bad’ AKA ‘successful’. Here’s my truth about these things – yes, if I go play music for four days straight I need that weekend to adequately pay off, but more than that I need it to be satisfying … or what was the point?

Since first hanging out my shingle that WIBC is open for business I’ve had a lot of satisfaction. The company has donated multiple times to a soup kitchen, I have met & had the pleasure of talking with a lot of great people, my business has expanded, I’ve laughed at my mistakes and laughed with people, I’ve sung at the top of my lungs late at night in an empty bakery while preparing dough, I’ve established a brand & a business and I’ve done it my way.
It’s all a great start, and depending on certain numbers I look at I’ve gotten to a better spot in four months than some companies do by two and three years.

Yet there’s the rub – the numbers creep back in … I may be in this business for a lot of things that aren’t typically considered in “proper business” – I’m in this for the happiness, I’m in this for the love, but I also have to have this adequately pay off, and right now it really isn’t. The ‘Money Thing’ isn’t working for me – and, paraphrasing from a famous prayer, I need to have the wisdom and courage to change what I can.

These past weeks I have been experimenting with products that keep in the same character of quality as my biscotti and yet will be more efficient to make – I may have the first of these to market as soon as next week. I have been given the idea of selling at conventions, festivals, and events – I’ve looked into this idea and I quite like the prospect. This past week or so this has grown into the idea of doing something I had resisted – selling at farmers markets.

The more I look at farmers markets, the more I think this is the way to go for WIBC – and perhaps has been all along, only that I have been obstinate … and it’s been the off season. Farmers markets – at least as I’ve seen them – present people who craft and believe in their products, often with colour and flair, that you don’t usually get from some mass brand name good that you can flip over and read “Made In Somewhere”. What part of ‘craft and believe in their products’ is not what I’ve been doing all a long? When I think of it that way, why wouldn’t I be there? Why wouldn’t I be doing something My Way with My Company among other self-employed growers, crafters, and producers who cherish bringing real goods to market?

At farmers markets I can do what I enjoy most with my baked goods – meet people, talk about what I do and what they enjoy, and as I’ve gotten to see when doing product demos … people receiving and enjoying what I’ve made. I also believe WIBC can get more of the exposure I’ve imagined for the company – reaching people with a fun business and good quality, pleasing (unique?) products. Neither I nor the people who have had my products so far get that the weeks I’m in my baking space producing biscotti, boxing it up, and shipping it off. I don’t see farmers markets as making me rich and fabulously famous – which isn’t what I want – but I do see it as giving my company the opportunity for the breath & life I’ve dreamt, a better avenue for the direction I’ve wanted to take this crazy baking-business idea, and for it to adequately pay off … because I need that, too.

My work is showing me how to do it, and it’s showing me things I did not imagine or expect – including my humility. So I believe I’ll keep taking this ride, and I’m glad to have you along with me.

All the Best, Don

Month 4 – Changes

As you surely know by now, I like making biscotti.  For all the years that I made it prior to launching my company, I found 3 things about it I especially enjoyed.  I enjoy eating it — OBVIOUSLY!  I enjoy making it, because something about the process I find very grounding.  Lastly, it pleases me to see other people enjoy something I’ve created.  I’ve also found that after eating it as much as I have, and now with it around me so much in production, the ‘eating it’ part has moved to 3rd in my order … but I digress.

Since launching my business late last year I’ve learned something about making biscotti — I’ve distinctly learned something about the production of biscotti.  To make this type of cookie is all well & fine when you’re making a few batches … but when you’re making dozens in a week …. IT’S A LOT OF WORK!  Don’t get me wrong — I’m all for work and working hard … but I’m against working stupid … well, if I have to do it all the time.

When I conceived my company I figured I would start with biscotti and eventually move on to additional products — other baked goods and some of my mom’s jams & candies.  Due to the labor-costs of biscotti, I’m moving into that sooner than I thought.  Biscotti will remain my hood-ornament product — unless my consumers show me otherwise — but I need to make things that have a better return on the ingredients and labour.  What I will NOT sacrifice, however, is the qualities with which I’ve made my products to date.  I like what you like — real food — no added preservatives, genuine items, ingredient labels I can read and understand without feeling like I’m cramming for an anatomy test, good texture & flavour, and products I enjoy eating.

Here’s what I’ve been thinking about &/or working on …

R&D batch of Monster Cookies
R&D batch of Monster Cookies

Monster Cookies – For the past few weeks I’ve been working on a Monster Cookie.  What I’ve been making centers around peanut butter, oats, chocolate chips, and M&Ms.  I want to bring this to market ASAP — and if I can I’m going to use oats that will keep the product flour-free (yeah, that’s right, some oats also have flour). bringing a Monster Cookie to market ASAP.  I also have ideas on how to tweak this to feature other flavours.  What are those tweak-ideas?  Well, that’s a surprise.

Brownies – Everyone likes brownies!  I’m working on two … so to speak.  I’m working on a regular brownie that I aim to also have interesting flavour pairings with … ALSO …. (this is the big news) I’m working on a brownie that — when it’s ready — could &/or should be (drum roll please) … Gluten Free … Nut Free … Dairy Free …and… Soy Free … and pleasing to eat.

Other Cookies – While we’re at it, how about a thick chocolate chip cookie?  Yeah, I know, what do I mean by ‘thick’.  Well, that too will be a surprise … and something I think you’ll enjoy!

Two Months

(End of December 2014 and January 2015)

So I’m the baker who blogs, right? But you’re asking yourself “Where then are the blogs, why haven’t you posted lately?” While I may be a semi-blogging baker, I’m also a quite busy baker.

December 2014 proved to be all about finding my feet and getting my process to be as efficient as possible. The act of producing a high quantity of biscotti took a number of changes in my baking space. First I thought this would be limited to the layout and rearrangement of my space until I found the greatest ergonomics. Other elements followed – obviously I found how I needed to coordinate mixing & baking my dough with dish-washing and packaging, but what was unexpected was finding aspects of how I need to move in my workspace (really this too is an ergonomics thing but I’m not sure how better to describe it).

By the end of December, having sought the consultation of my SBA associate and a friend who has been further coaching me in sales, I identified that I needed to reduce my cost of labor. Please don’t mistake this as meaning I found I needed to pay my employees less because I am all of my employees – my costs where in my time and energy (and by the way, for the sake of my company, I’m not paying myself yet). In producing for businesses to sell my product, I had been offering that they could order any of my flavours, which had me drawing from a wide assortment of ingredients to make a variety of biscotto flavours having to wash my equipment at every turn.

Starting in January I made a shift – every location would regularly receive two flavours, Double Chocolate and Almond, and the flavour-of-the-month, with January being Espresso (a little caffeine to start the new year you see). I’m happy about this approach, not just for the efficiency of my baking production, but because I like what this does with presenting the public with my flavours – two tried and true flavours and one highlight.
TO BE CLEAR – Anyone wanting to place a retail order direct from WIBC may purchase from the complete flavour list of biscotti and shortbread.

So what’s the score-board look like now at the end of two months?

When I’m in the bakery my production is flowing. My company has established business with a few new groceries and restaurants and private orders are beginning to come in. Frankly, WIBC is operating below viability but I’m seeing good growth in a short amount of time. The lack of business has been an asset, giving me not only time to reach additional businesses but also to be able to refine my process with available time.

Getting placed in restaurants and stores has been going okay, however I’ve needed to get more locations faster. Frankly, I’m concerned about running out of my start-up funding before the company takes … which may well be a legit concern or may just be common new-small-business jitters. I’ve been told that there is good money to be made with selling at area festivals / events / conventions and I’ve begun looking into attending a list that has kindly been shared with me by a fellow small business person.

Whatever the case, I keep thinking back to a paper in college – moreover the subject. I wrote on the 100th Battalion & 442nd Regimental Combat Team – the all-Japanese American soldiers of WWII. Without going into a dissertation on the subject here, I will say it is a fascinating, powerful, and inspiring piece of history and I encourage everyone to do some research. Those men had a motto – “Go For Broke”. All out – that’s how they worked and that’s how they played – that’s how they gambled and that’s how they fought. Every time I wonder if the up-hill to this company is too up-hill, I remember their astounding trials & tribulations and I think “Go For Broke”.

I also remember something I learned from Journey …

Don’t Stop Believin’,
Don

Week 2

(Dec8 – Dec12)

This past week was a blur of bad cocoa, good cocoa, new boughts(sp?) of strong weather, and positive sales reports from the businesses carrying my products. I remember the parts better than the order, which might also have to do with the fact that I’ve only had coffee about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. So as I was saying, week #2 went something like this…

My chocolate recipes were still coming out not bad but not right. When I cut the loaves the ends of the biscotto would break. This was particularly a problem because every store I’m serving is ordering at least one type of chocolate recipe – and all of them want Chocolate Peppermint Biscotti. In addition to the breaking I noted that the texture was cake-like by comparison to what I’ve been producing since I started making biscotti. I thought perhaps I had an issue with adjusting my oven temperature now that I’m working with high grade commercial ovens – but the problem was only occurring with my chocolate recipes. My dad was suggesting that maybe it was an issue with my cocoa – I’d tried just about everything else. I picked John’s brains and he suggested it probably had to do with the fat levels of the cocoa. After doing a bit of research I found out that there was a difference between what I had bought for the company and what I’ve been using for the years prior. After a few test batches, my ability to make Double Chocolate, Chocolate Peppermint, and Chocolate Orange Biscotti was back! Prior to this though there were more batches donated to the Langely Tue/Thur soup kitchen.

This week has been one of weather. The snow we woke up to November 30th stuck around until about December 5th – much of it in the form of compact snow and ice along with downed trees. Early this week we had heavy rains. I worked late Tuesday night to get my production done – by late I mean I left at 1210 AM Wednesday morning – I had to walk home, which takes about an hour … suffice to say I got more than a little wet despite my gear. Late in the week the area had heavy winds and the power got knocked out – fortunately all of my baking was done, but I was out of power for about 48 hours … oh, and did I mention the house I live in is on a well and the pump is electric? No power also means no water. That made for a speed bump in some of the other work I intended to do for the company. I found there comes a point when you’re out of power long enough that as you’re boiling water on your BBQ you realize you’re camping in your own home, just that your house is a really fancy tent and your bed is still more comfortable than an air mattress.

Tuesday I went to the soup kitchen with about three batches of not-quite-right biscotti (and about as many more on Thursday). I got to meet Dan, who heads up the soup-kitchen crew. Dan is a character and clearly a good guy. Everyone contributing there was VERY nice, VERY friendly – I felt good going there and even better having gotten to donate.

Somewhere during the second half of the week I started hearing good things about my biscotti. (Yes, back to the bullets – remember that ‘lack of time but get it written’ thing from Week 1? Same deal.)

  • Jessica, the manager of Three Sisters Grocery, called me (Friday?) asking when the next supply would arrive – they were out of stock and customers were coming in asking for more!
  • Useless Bay Coffee requested an adjustment with their stock for better sales. When I went in to the café it appeared about half of their stock had sold – that’s not bad. After I left the café a little bird told me that the manager of the Langley post office has lately been enjoying some lemon biscotti – the post office in Langley is next door to Useless Bay Café … hmm, I wonder who’s lemon biscotto that was?
  • Dad drove my deliveries north Friday afternoon – the first stop being at Greenbank Store & Grille. Last and this week they have taken the biggest order, approximately a third larger than my other locations. That evening dad reported that when he arrived they only had six single-serving packages remaining.
  • I spoke with Drag N Fly Espresso in Oak Harbor and they are about ready for a re-stock. They have no more supply of Chocolate Peppermint Biscotti. I can’t blame their customers – it’s good stuff! (Although I rather like the Ginger Citrus and the Almond, too.)

That was the first supply to go out and sold over the course of … about a week and a half … as the saying goes “That ain’t shabby.” I take it as rather good news.

Okay, I’ve now finished my first 2 blog posts – it’s 234AM on December 15th and I’m going to bed. I hope these have amused you because they’ll have to hold you for a while. Tomorrow … er, today I have a good bit of calling and other administrative work to do – including talking with a few land-side businesses about carrying my product … I wonder who will be the first one?

Goodnight Alfalfa, Don

PS – If you’re on my Xmas gift list you can pretty much expect biscotti. Any money I have is too tied up in the company to buy you another bad tie or a chia-pet … although I have to say it’s pretty cool that they’re now making zombie chia-pets. I wonder if they’ll start making chia-ties.

PPS – Saturday’s date was 12.13.14.

Week 1

(1Dec – 5Dec2014)

My first week of business was nothing short of a crazy interesting learning experience I found thoroughly satisfying. Yeah, you read that right. It went something like this…

Oh, and as you read, keep in mind that I have developed an ability to laugh at myself when things go wrong just as I can find great joy even in little things when they go right.  So while you may prefer to read that everything went well, no hitches, no bumps, everything is polished & smooth, that’s just not the truth of the matter … things started out bumpy and got better, and I can laugh at the tough stuff and celebrate the recovery phase.

Monday December 1st — Failed Production

  • At the beginning of my first day I tried a triple batch of Almond Biscotti in one of the big mixers at the bakery – and it completely flopped. The dough wasn’t mixing and some gray ooze appeared on the bowl – I had to throw everything out.
  • The company (cell) phone wasn’t working. The battery wouldn’t charge, there was a lack of signal in the bakery, and I wasn’t able to tether my computer to the data signal that also wasn’t there – all things contrary to the purpose. I took a break from the 3-batch Almond Biscotti debacle to head out and address my phone issue – ultimately to no avail.
  • Not knowing what happened to the Almond batches, I needed to start producing in a way I was confident about. I switched to my personal 5-quart mixer and produced for 3 businesses. Many of these batches didn’t turn out right – the cookies broke when I cut them. I thought I hadn’t properly adjusted for the temperature of the commercial ovens. Ultimately the product was edible but it was not right. As you can imagine I was quite frustrated. (The problem was with the chocolate recipes – which were popular among the orders I was filling. I found out the following week that the issue was with the type of cocoa powder I was using – which I’ll write about in the week-2 blog.)
  • Dad helped me from the time I got back from the cell-phone-fix outing. We left bakery at 11PM having only produced a lot of not-right biscotti … not to mention a lot of personal disappointment. I went home thinking about my first day, that it was just one day – and of course that I had come too far for this to discourage me. It made me think about the (8?) years of seeking employment prior to starting this company … I had picked up a saying that was representative of what I did … “When times are trying don’t stop trying.” I went to bed knowing I’d return to the bakery the next day with refreshed vigor.

Tuesday December 2nd — Successful Production

  • Just before leaving the house for the bakery I received a call from Three Sisters Farm Grocery following up on placing an order. Now I was off to the bakery to fix everything I made for the 3 businesses the day before along with an additional store. No pressure … right.
  • When I arrived at the bakery I asked John, the owner of the bakery and his business JW Desserts (I rent space from him) about where I might take my failed biscotti from Monday and Almond batches that didn’t mix along with the gray ooze. John instructed that the ooze occurred because I didn’t attach the bowl correctly to the mixer, and the dough didn’t mix simply because I wasn’t stopping the machine to scrape the ingredients off the bottom. None of that occurred to me because I assumed this commercial mixer was like my Kitchen Aid, and these things don’t happen with that. Live and learn. As for the not-right biscotti, I could take & donate that to the soup kitchen in Langley that produces lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays – and write it off as a donation.
  • Needing to get started on production, my dad took the Monday biscotti to the soup kitchen. When he returned he said the kitchen crew was happy to receive it and that they don’t usually get something like this in. My dad was also carrying a Mason jar full of hot chicken soup – he said the kitchen staff offered it to him. This struck me as an amazing thing … one of my dreams for what I might do with this company is to fight hunger with helping to support food banks. It wasn’t my plan, but as it turned out the first act of my company was to contribute to a soup kitchen. I was happy just to donate, and as it happened that the first thing my company did was to give as I had dreamt – and without expecting anything for it we got a jar of soup. It’s a simple thing, and it’s beautiful. I’m humbled by this, I’m grateful for this, and I like to think optimistically that this is just the beginning. I think that was the best chicken soup I’ve ever had.
  • Dad stuck around for the day. He wanted to see my production work out right and to help me get caught up. He made himself available for any loose end I needed picked-up; his help was invaluable and I was glad to get to spend the time with him at the beginning of my company. For the first half of the day I was going with what I know – I was cranking my batches out one at a time using my 5-quarter mixer. As the afternoon stretched on it seemed that progress was plodding. I weighed my options and decided to try working with one of the big mixers again. I had around four batches of Chocolate Peppermint Biscotti to make with a few other batches of flavours to finish the day. I rolled the dice with the instructions John gave me and it all worked. This time dad & I left the bakery at 10 PM – the biscotti for 4 stores had been produced and everything came out right.
  • Tuesday was about 180-degrees different than Monday. As I saw things come together better than the day before I said what I understand Da Vinci to have said – “I’m still learning.” I have plenty to learn about this new business venture – all elements of it. I realized that the day I go home saying “Everything went well today; I didn’t learn anything new.” is plenty far in the future … and the day that happens is probably the day something really went wrong.

Wednesday December 3rd — First Deliveries

  • Dad and I got to the bakery to handle the packaging/labeling, loaded everything into 12gal totes according to where the deliveries were going. We work well together, which is good because the packaging is currently a bit of a slow process. Biscotto goes into a bag, the bag gets weighed, the weight gets hand-written on the label, the label gets applied to the bag, and the finished package goes in its tote. Since I don’t know the general weight of my packages just yet this adds detail to the production.
  • First delivery was to Useless Bay Café (or is it Coffee) in Langley. The staff apparently was expecting me. I was directed to bring my tote to the end of the counter to unload. 3 or 4 staff members met me with eager curiosity. I realized then that I should have brought samples for them, thought to bring with my next delivery.
  • Second delivery was to Greenbank Store & Grille. I connected with Brian Cedar, the owner, and he immediately set up a display by the front door. I got a picture of him with the product – and my company received its first check.
  • Third delivery was to Three Sisters Farm Store on the north side of Penn Cove. For me this was a special stop. The original inception of my company in January 2013 was to start as a cottage business then shift into being a commercial business once it grew large enough. During these many months a number of business owners received samples of my baked goods and expressed interest in carrying my products once my company became a commercial business. My understanding has been that the Three Sisters Farm is the largest food producer on Whidbey Island; their products are local-grown/made and all natural, as are the other items they carry. My plans changed when they said they wanted to carry my baked goods – that was the ‘critical mass’ of interest for me to start as a commercial business. I met with the manager – Jessica, who is one of the three sisters. I made the delivery and then attempted tripping over one of their displays on the way out.
  • My last delivery was to Drag N Fly Espresso in Oak Harbor. I got to meet the owner, Tina, and talk small-business shop a bit.

I should also mention that Saturday night before the launch the south end of Whidbey Island received a pretty good delivery of snow. There is a personal significance to this – I have had many good beginnings with snow. My first Xmas was white, I got my driver’s license in snow, and my move to live full-time on Whidbey Island was in snow – to name a few. I take this as a good sign.

If you’re wondering where my writing is about Thursday & Friday, it’s not here. I haven’t had much time, and I’m finishing writing this on the 14th – I frankly don’t remember what happened. Also, I realize you the reader may be more accustom to better polished blog post article things instead of these bullet-point notes – chalk that up to the same ‘lack of time’ reason. Which brings us to this – the good news and the bad news … the bad news is that I’ve started a company and I haven’t exactly come up for air yet; the good news is MY COMPANY HAS LAUNCHED!!!

Best, Don

PS about Week 1 – I had some dental surgery about a week before the company launch, which also added to the trials/tribulations. On one hand, I couldn’t sample what I produced because I was on a soft-food order from my surgeon; on the other hand, I had a number of pleased volunteer taste-testers. While I can carefully consume my biscotti now, I am supposed to remain on soft foods into January – so if you’re passing through Clinton let me know, it will make my surgeon happy to know I have samplers … I’m quite certain it would make you happy, too.